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Answering Questions About "Democracy is Barbaric"

Firstly, I must assert that, contrary to the opinions of those who have placed me on the political chart, I am NOT an authoritarian. Indeed, one of the reasons that I dislike representative democracy is that it is an innately authoritarian system. I am a libertarian; that is to say, I am opposed to all compulsory external authority over the individual. That compulsory authority includes the state.

Saying that I wish to get rid of the state will no doubt cause many people who have read this page up to this point to roll their eyes and scoff. However, the state is the paradigm for contemporary politics, and it is a paradigm that I have questioned, and ultimately decided needs a shift. Political debate is always about how to reform the state and its policies, not how to maximise individual liberty. People rarely question the state's validity. As a sceptic, I approach all matters with the assumption that the burden of proof lies with those who wish to justify their claim/s. In the case of statism versus anarchism, the burden of proof lies with both sides, not simply with the anarchists. Statists must justify the state on both moral and pragmatic grounds (there will inevitably be much overlap here, especially in the cases of utilitarian statists.) I maintain that the state is an unnecessary, harmful, and parasitic institution (or set of institutions) that humanity would be far better off without.

The modern Western state is secular, democratic, and allows for varying degrees of personal liberty. However, this has not always been the case. States were formed through a marriage of secular and religious authorities. The earliest states were justified along religious grounds, such as "the divine right of kings" to rule their subjects. European monarchs held onto the land they had conquered and the people they had subjugated with much help from the Roman Catholic Church, who sanctioned states and helped them keep people in check by threatening them with Purgatory and/or Hell if they disobeyed the authorities. There were mutual benefits here - the monarchs and the nobility were able to tax people, keep them in poverty, and maintain their own privileged positions, and the Church was able to receive money from all classes of society in order to fund new monasteries and acquire new lands.

The Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century did not do a great deal, if anything at all, to change this. In England, for example, King Henry VIII split from Rome but appointed himself the head of the Church of England, ensuring his own authority by making it appear to the common, uneducated peasant that he had been appointed by God to rule both the parliament (and, by extension, the people), and the church. Indeed, it could be argued that, prior to the Enlightenment, states were the apotheosis of religious stupidity, as people allied themselves with their rulers on the basis of religion. This can be seen well in England, France, and Spain in particular.

The Age of Enlightenment in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries helped bring about the decline of theocratic states in Europe. New political thinkers like Thomas Hobbes, John Locke, and Jean-Jacques Rousseau justified states on purely secular and philosophical grounds. The concept of "the social contract" dominated statist political theory throughout and after the Enlightenment. Hobbes was the first theorist of the social contract, although Locke's more liberal theory has had by far the bigger impact. Locke argued that, in a "state of nature" (anarchy), people had natural rights to life, liberty, and property. In order to protect those rights, men instituted civil governments and granted them the authority to tax and make laws, provided that they protected individual rights. Sound familiar? Locke’s theory of the social contract formed the philosophical basis for the American Declaration of Independence, and he is to this day held in the highest esteem by American constitutionalists.

The social contract is a nice idea. It is also a myth. There has never been a state formed on the basis of a social contract – not even America. The USA was created by privileged white, male, heterosexual, slave-owning, land-owning intellectuals. The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were both written by slave-owners who wanted to be free. The Founding Fathers were all war criminals by modern-day standards (just look at their disgraceful treatment of the Native Americans if you want proof), and yet the US federal government has created something of a religious cult around them. Such is politics.

If one does not believe in the divine right of kings (and even the Iranians are starting to have their doubts), and if the social contract is a myth (which it is), then just what is the moral justification for the state? Well, it is perfectly reasonable to argue that the origins of the state are irrelevant, and that it must be made to serve positive functions in the interests of “the people” here and now. However, as I pointed out in my previous entry, the state simply tries to serve the interests of enough people to maintain and aggrandise its own power. Rulers are certainly interested in their people – interested in controlling them and stealing from them. To have a democratic, rather than an oligarchic, state, is simply to have a state where the majority collectively steal (or “tax”) everyone’s money in order to acquire services that they either couldn’t acquire or couldn’t be bothered to acquire themselves.

The actual effectiveness of the state is miserable. Look at all the worst mass-murderers and wars in history and ask yourself “Who was responsible for them?” Were they privately-owned businesses? Were they labour collectives? Were they agrarians? Or were they states? Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pot, Reagan, Bush, Blair, Milosevic, et cetera, were all political rulers who ordered the killings of millions of people. The problems that states solves e.g. the UK, USA, and USSR defeating Nazi Germany in the Second World War, were inevitably caused by states in the first place (the Treaty of Versailles, in this instance. And don’t forget that Nazi Germany was a state as well.) The most brutal tyrants in history were all statists to a man.

Economic regulation is a common argument used for the utility of the state. “Obviously”, the statists will drone, “states aren’t perfect; but utopianism of any kind is highly dangerous. The free market is immoral, and there has to be some kind of central regulation, or else everything will go tits-up. Just look at the Great Depression and the current financial crisis to see the gross failings of laissez-faire.” This kind of argument is so excruciatingly poor and misinformed that I shall not myself deal with it here. Instead, I will link all those who are interested to the following:

http://mises.org/story/3128
http://mises.org/story/3165
http://mises.org/rothbard/agd.pdf

The Fabian socialist and Marxist-Leninist belief in central economic planning has failed. The corporatist/Keynesian belief in market regulation has failed spectacularly, and has only been covered up by the vast amount of state propaganda, often spread through the medium of the corporate media. And yet, with the failure of economic regulation, comes the demand for more economic regulation; from the grassroots socialist left, the corporate media, and the political establishments of both Europe and North America (especially Britain, France, Germany, and blue America.) However, the FACT of the matter is this: no economic system will EVER function with absolute 100% perfection. Free markets are preferable for oh so many reasons that I do not care to go into detail here – I shall save that for a later manifesto page.

Having now very roughly sketched out why I am opposed to the state, and having included both moral and practical reasons for my opposition, I will attempt to roughly outline what I see as the only alternative (I can think of no systems besides statism and anarchy, so I shall reduce this to a simple dichotomy.) Anarchism is not a social Darwinist ideology. Anarchism is not a nihilistic ideology. Anarchists do not want to “stick it to The Man” and then proceed to obliterate everything in sight with Molotov cocktails and machine guns. Anarchists want a free, peaceful, and prosperous society, with no coercive political establishment i.e. the state. There are numerous different schools of anarchist thought. The main ones are communist anarchists, anarcho-syndicalists, collectivist anarchists, mutualists, agorists, and anarcho-capitalists. I myself am an anarcho-capitalist, although I am just as happy to use words and phrases like voluntaryist, voluntarist, market anarchist, individualist anarchist, and free market anarchist to describe myself.

Free market anarchism would leave people free to do as they choose, provided that they don’t harm anyone else in doing so. People could lead simple, self-sufficient, agrarian lifestyles, work in large, hierarchical businesses, join a workers’ cooperative/syndicate/commune/whatever, or simply refuse to do anything at all and hope to live off the charity of others. The provision of medical services would be far more efficient, as competing insurance companies would provide low-cost healthcare (note to US Democrats – you DON’T have a free market in healthcare. You have a state-ensured oligopoly), and defence for people’s property would be supplied by either Private Defence Agencies (PDAs) or community-based cooperatives. A good example of how stateless societies protected private property is the American Old West (the “Not So Wild West”), where individuals joined Land Leagues in order to protect their property. In short, all the services and privileges that people enjoy today would be readily available on a free market, only there would be competing services (which lowers the prices), no taxation, and no compulsion to have any kind of healthcare, legal defence, or, indeed, anything at all. If we lived in anarchy, the general philosophy of life would be “Do as you please, just don’t harm anyone else in the process.”

“Granted, not all people will see the results of their vote enacted but the general consensus is that we have to go with what the majority feel is right.” - thegingerbreadman.

To which I simply reply:

“Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance.” – H.L. Mencken.

I’m sorry, but most people are stupid. Why should they be allowed to run my life? Even if the majority of people were geniuses, that still wouldn’t sanction their running of my life. Autarchy – self-rule – is the only legitimate form of government.
http://www.lawsloop.com/manifesto.php?name=VanDoodah&page=1633



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Manifesto Page Full Democracy Member OMF

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VanDoodah

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Posted: 29th Oct 2009 (7:13pm)
"I'm not claiming that the system is perfect, however the people in this situation are at least to a degree answerable to those they represent. However flawed the accountability may be it is there. You can pick holes in it all day, but there is a degree of consequence."

There can be consequences, but many politicians get away with murder - literally. To hand so much power into the hands of such a tiny number of people seems to be prima facie absurd, and yet people believe that if only THEIR people could take charge, then everything would be okay.

"How will your society deal with the fact that, in the main, people do make bad decisions or defer their responsibility onto others?"

The deferral of responsibility is another good argument AGAINST the state. Soldiers are a good example; how many innocent people have been killed by Coalition troops in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Pakistan in the past eight years? And yet who do people blame? Politicians and bureaucrats, not the people who actually carried out the killings. Of course warmongering politicians must take some of the blame, but members of the armed forces can get away with murder (again, literally), simply by deferring authority to the state and claiming that they have a "duty" to "protect and serve" the nation.

People will make bad decisions regardless of whether or not the state exists. Try a thought experiment; if a town somewhere became completely cut off from the rest of the world, and there was no state to run a monopolistic police force, do you think that the townsfolk would tolerate murder, theft, rape, paedophilia, violence et cetera? Or do you think that these people would face severe consequences? There is an abundance of literature available on anarchic law and police online; I refer you to mises.org if you wish to know more.

"how will an anarchistic society deal with poor decision making, or a shirking/delegation of responsibility by its members, and still remain as anarchistic as you seem to believe it can be."

I could ask you the very same question, and just replace "anarchistic" with "statist". Poor decision making by whom? Businesses? Individuals in their career choices? Families on where to spend their money and what on? A deferral of responsibility to whom by whom? You have asked a very, very vague question which could have numerous possible answers depending on the specifics you wish to hear about. If you make the question more precise, then I'll answer it.

"If all people were intelligent, insightful and reasonable then yes, such a society would function perfectly. Not all people are so, therefore idealism can only be a pleasant theory."

I'm not an idealist. I don't believe that anarchy = utopia. However, I do believe that an anarchical society would be a freer, more humane, and mutually beneficial society than a statist one.

"Who's going to stop us? A bigger, stronger or more powerful gang? And who stops them doing the same?"

This is an attempt to undermine anarchism by conjuring incredibly unlikely scenarios and treating them as though they were realistic prospects. The question of defence in an anarchical society has been dealt with by numerous individuals. Hell, Gustave de Molinari wrote "The Production of Security" in the early-mid nineteenth century. You claim that a gang of thugs (the state) is necessary to stop other gangs of thugs taking over. What would stop violent militias? Firstly, conquering a large territory would be incredibly expensive, and you'd meet with a lot of resistance. Secondly, you'd face PDAs who had contracts with the individuals you were trying to coerce. Thirdly, whilst there are violent bastards out there, I consider most people to be generally quite peaceful. I don't know that many violent people.

"Do you suggest that we should be happy with what we have, and simply cease any intent of progress? Or that only those who are particularly generous should be relied upon to fund such things?"

You are claiming, quite without justification, that progress can only happen if the state drives it. At least, that is inferable from your questioning of an anarchical society's ability to make technological and general scientific progressions.

"So, you have no suggestions of who might provide the service otherwise?"

A fairly obvious answer - private contractors and philanthropists.

ozymandius

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Posted: 29th Oct 2009 (3:38pm)
"Not necessarily. What consequences did Ronald Reagan ever face for selling arms to Saddam Hussein, the contras, and Suharto? Will Bush and Blair ever be bought to justice? And what consequences are there for their theft of our money? (And I'm not talking about the expenses scandal, I'm talking about taxes.)"

I'm not claiming that the system is perfect, however the people in this situation are at least to a degree answerable to those they represent. However flawed the accountability may be it is there. You can pick holes in it all day, but there is a degree of consequence.

However I do agree that the accountability should be much, much greater than it is.

"""In most cases where 'the people' have been given freedom, they are generally very quick to shackle themselves by choosing others to make the difficult decisions for them."

The French Revolution didn't create anarchy; it simply replaced the autocratic rule of the French monarch with a parliament of psychotics like Robespierre. The French Revolution led to an ultra-centralised state, not anarchy."

I chose not to answer this, as your response was irrelevant to my point. How will your society deal with the fact that, in the main, people do make bad decisions or defer their responsibility onto others?

"You believe in central economic planning and general statist regulations. That kind of economic nonsense has been a laughing stock for years."

My beliefs have very little to do with your arguments. I am simply trying to explore your theories and see how complete they are. So far you have resorted to ad hominem attacks and drifting off at a tangent to avoid addressing the one central issue I am trying to raise - how will an anarchistic society deal with poor decision making, or a shirking/delegation of responsibility by its members, and still remain as anarchistic as you seem to believe it can be.

"You clearly don't know what an ad hominem is. I suggest you look it up."

I'm aware of what an ad hominem is. Its an attempt to dodge an argument by linking the argument to the person concerned. You have still not addressed my question of how an anarchistic society will continue to function without coercion slipping in. How do you protect such a society from being taken advantage of?

If all people were intelligent, insightful and reasonable then yes, such a society would function perfectly. Not all people are so, therefore idealism can only be a pleasant theory.

"It's not a state if it's voluntary. Also, bear in mind that you and "a group of friends" with weapons are unlikely to set up a dictatorship."

Who's going to stop us? A bigger, stronger or more powerful gang? And who stops them doing the same?

"Do you think there may be a reason that we have very little evidence, in that the theory is not practical?"

No.

"WERE largely state-funded. The Post Office is bankrupt."

Yes, since the funding for it stopped a service which a huge number of people use, and which even now performs fairly well, is pretty much doomed to failure. You still haven't answered my question of how such a service would be funded under your own anarchistic system. Nor have you addressed the issue of technologies developed largely through state funding and which have now been integrated to our way of life.

Do you suggest that we should be happy with what we have, and simply cease any intent of progress? Or that only those who are particularly generous should be relied upon to fund such things?

"The state provides x service.
Therefore, only the state can provide x service.

That's really the extent of your argument. It's barely worth dealing with."

So, you have no suggestions of who might provide the service otherwise?

VanDoodah

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Posted: 29th Oct 2009 (1:29pm)
I notice that you ignored:

""Because those people do have to face some sort of consequences, no matter how remote or petty those may be."

Not necessarily. What consequences did Ronald Reagan ever face for selling arms to Saddam Hussein, the contras, and Suharto? Will Bush and Blair ever be bought to justice? And what consequences are there for their theft of our money? (And I'm not talking about the expenses scandal, I'm talking about taxes.)"

And also:

""In most cases where 'the people' have been given freedom, they are generally very quick to shackle themselves by choosing others to make the difficult decisions for them."

The French Revolution didn't create anarchy; it simply replaced the autocratic rule of the French monarch with a parliament of psychotics like Robespierre. The French Revolution led to an ultra-centralised state, not anarchy.

I suggest that you read some Edmund Burke. "Reflections on the Revolution in France" is his explanation as to why he opposed the French Revolution, and is one of the greatest classical conservative and gradualist works ever written. Then read his "Vindication of Natural Society" (Burke had strong anarchist tendencies.)"

You believe in central economic planning and general statist regulations. That kind of economic nonsense has been a laughing stock for years.

VanDoodah

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Posted: 29th Oct 2009 (1:26pm)
"Interesting that you've resorted to personal attacks already."

You clearly don't know what an ad hominem is. I suggest you look it up.

"In your idealised anarchistic state I can go out with a group of friends and bunch of weapons, and set up my own state."

It's not a state if it's voluntary. Also, bear in mind that you and "a group of friends" with weapons are unlikely to set up a dictatorship.

"Do you think there may be a reason that we have very little evidence, in that the theory is not practical?"

No.

"Under your system we would not have the internet, television, communications networks or similar. All of these were largely state funded. Not to mention postal networks and many other systems we rely on day-to-day in modern life. Sounds great."

WERE largely state-funded. The Post Office is bankrupt.

Your argument is this:

The state provides x service.
Therefore, only the state can provide x service.

That's really the extent of your argument. It's barely worth dealing with.

ozymandius

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Posted: 29th Oct 2009 (11:13am)
"Either a) you have misunderstood my views, or b) you are simply stupid."

Interesting that you've resorted to personal attacks already.

"You don't "enforce" anarchy. Anarchy is the absence of coercion."

Which is the problem. If there is no coercion to follow a reasonable social order, whether anarchistic or otherwise, how do you prevent someone trying to use their wealth, strength, or any other mechanism to create their own order, with themselves at the head? In your idealised anarchistic state I can go out with a group of friends and bunch of weapons, and set up my own state.

"What kind of authority? Voluntary hierarchies? Or a new state?"

A new state most likely, though voluntary hierarchies will most likely appear as well.

"No, I pointed out (correctly), that there is little physical evidence that we have available when discussing anarchism, and that what evidence we have supports it."

Do you think there may be a reason that we have very little evidence, in that the theory is not practical? You'll note that we have many examples of other systems of government.

"According to you, I should have to work for my money, only to have it taken away from me by a centralised, bureaucratic authority, and then see it handed over to men in lab coats so that they can fund their playing-God activities with. I don't give a flying fuck about the Large Hadron Collider. If you do, and you want to see it funded, then contribute some of your own money to it. Stay away from mine."

Under your system we would not have the internet, television, communications networks or similar. All of these were largely state funded. Not to mention postal networks and many other systems we rely on day-to-day in modern life. Sounds great.


VanDoodah

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Posted: 28th Oct 2009 (9:10pm)
"Because those people do have to face some sort of consequences, no matter how remote or petty those may be."

Not necessarily. What consequences did Ronald Reagan ever face for selling arms to Saddam Hussein, the contras, and Suharto? Will Bush and Blair ever be bought to justice? And what consequences are there for their theft of our money? (And I'm not talking about the expenses scandal, I'm talking about taxes.)

"More importantly how do you plan to continue to enforce an anarchistic society?"

Either a) you have misunderstood my views, or b) you are simply stupid.

You don't "enforce" anarchy. Anarchy is the absence of coercion.

"Authority will develop."

What kind of authority? Voluntary hierarchies? Or a new state?

"You have chosen a single example where your societal theories have not failed."

No, I pointed out (correctly), that there is little physical evidence that we have available when discussing anarchism, and that what evidence we have supports it.

"I believe revolutionary France tried a similar theory."

The French Revolution was a socialist one.

"In most cases where 'the people' have been given freedom, they are generally very quick to shackle themselves by choosing others to make the difficult decisions for them."

The French Revolution didn't create anarchy; it simply replaced the autocratic rule of the French monarch with a parliament of psychotics like Robespierre. The French Revolution led to an ultra-centralised state, not anarchy.

I suggest that you read some Edmund Burke. "Reflections on the Revolution in France" is his explanation as to why he opposed the French Revolution, and is one of the greatest classical conservative and gradualist works ever written. Then read his "Vindication of Natural Society" (Burke had strong anarchist tendencies.)

"Yes. People will not choose to spend their money on things which do not provide immediate gratification, except for a limited number who have foresight. You seem to prefer that those with foresight are penalised and punished for their wisdom rather than that the consequences of other's stupidity are allayed."

According to you, I should have to work for my money, only to have it taken away from me by a centralised, bureaucratic authority, and then see it handed over to men in lab coats so that they can fund their playing-God activities with. I don't give a flying fuck about the Large Hadron Collider. If you do, and you want to see it funded, then contribute some of your own money to it. Stay away from mine.

ozymandius

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Posted: 28th Oct 2009 (9:33am)
"If people are generally bad, then why would you trust people with coercive and arbitrary authority?"

Because those people do have to face some sort of consequences, no matter how remote or petty those may be. The perfect system, in my view, will always be the intelligent benevolent dictator. I simply accept that things don't work that way.

More importantly how do you plan to continue to enforce an anarchistic society? Authority will develop.

"There is no evidence to back it up, and what evidence we have points to the contrary."

You have chosen a single example where your societal theories have not failed. I believe revolutionary France tried a similar theory. In most cases where 'the people' have been given freedom, they are generally very quick to shackle themselves by choosing others to make the difficult decisions for them.

"What you are saying is that the state should take people's money by force and then hand it over to scientists."

Yes. People will not choose to spend their money on things which do not provide immediate gratification, except for a limited number who have foresight. You seem to prefer that those with foresight are penalised and punished for their wisdom rather than that the consequences of other's stupidity are allayed.

VanDoodah

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Posted: 27th Oct 2009 (7:22pm)
"The system works when you believe that people are generally nice. They aren't."

If people are, generally speaking, bad, then that disqualifies the state. If people are generally bad, then why would you trust people with coercive and arbitrary authority? The notion that human beings are an essentially immature and stupid species (which is true to a certain extent) disqualifies the state more than anarchy.

"the scum will float to the top and succeed at the expense of those who are kinder".

This is a mere assertion. There is no evidence to back it up, and what evidence we have points to the contrary. Medieval Ireland had no central authority, and the scum did not float to the top. Medieval Iceland had many qualities of a market anarchist society, and again, the scum did not float to the top. In order for the state to stop "the scum" from gaining any significant influence, it is necessary to employ soldiers, who are of thuggish dispositions. Using scum to prevent scum from being successful is another absurd and self-contradicting argument.

"If such things are not funded technology and science stagnates and fails"

What you are saying is that the state should take people's money by force and then hand it over to scientists. I am opposed to any compulsory external authority over the individual, and as such I do not believe in charity at gunpoint. Scientists would simply have to find funding from elsewhere, and not simply sponge off of the state.

ozymandius

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Posted: 27th Oct 2009 (9:37am)
I believe there's a famous saying about democracy being a case of two wolves and a sheep voting over what's for dinner. Personally I prefer Spider Jerusalem's definition, but for reasons of politeness won't repeat it here.

There is one fundamental problem with anarchism, which is echoed with any political system. The system works when you believe that people are generally nice. They aren't. In any system without a central authority answerable (even to the minor degree that ours are) to an ideal of 'the people', the scum will float to the top and succeed at the expense of those who are kinder, more selfless, and generally better people.

You should care about the LHC because similar experiments have led to great leaps forwards both in the understanding of the universe, and in technology. If such things are not funded technology and science stagnates and fails, original ideas cease being useful or encouraged, and you end up in a dying society.

Societies do not stand still. They either progress or regress.

VanDoodah

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Posted: 27th Oct 2009 (1:17am)
"For example, we can't turn back time and forget our technological advances."

Free market anarchism isn't a theory tailored to pre-industrial, non-technological societies. Social anarchism (communist anarchism, anarcho-syndicalism, and collectivist anarchism) is. Murray N. Rothbard, Hans-Hermann Hoppe, Roderick T. Long, and many others are all good examples of recent or contemporary anarcho-capitalist thinkers.

"isn't as relevant today as it was in the old west."

I simply used that as one example. The state is not necessary to protect property.

Furthermore, I would add that the state is a negation of private property. Because the state arbitrarily claims a certain region of land, people cannot own property within that land; they can only rent it. Property tax is a form of rent. Ergo, in order to create private property, the state must go.

"the multi-billion dollar LHC would never go ahead in such a system."

I don't care about the LHC. Why should I? If you want to see such experiments to go ahead, then feel free to donate some of your money to the cause. Don't force me to relinquish my money in order to fund it.

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